Behind the HOF Plaques: Untold Stories of St. Louis Baseball Greats

Arnold00:00:00

The images of St. Louis baseball legends are painted on Busch Stadium's left field wall honoring their retired uniform numbers and their inductions into the National Baseball hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York. Names like Hornsby, Dean, Musial, Schoendienst, Gibson and Brock. But the mural only highlights 13 of the 55 players inducted into the hall of Fame who played for the National League St. Louis Cardinals? Who are these other players and what are their stories? And what about the nine men from the American League St.Louis Browns whose plaques also hang in Cooperstown? Who are they and what are their stories? Stories and five of the 37 members of the Negro Leagues have been inducted into the hall of Fame.They have ties to the St. Louis Giants and the St. Louis Stars. Who were they and what made each of them stand out over the thousands of African Americans playing in the league?We're going to find out more today on St. Louis in Tune. Welcome to St.Louis in Tune and thank you for joining us for fresh perspectives on issues and events with experts, community leaders and everyday people who make a difference in shaping our society and world. I'm Arnold Stricker along with co host Mark Langston who is on assignment and we are glad that you've joined us today. We want to thank our sponsor Better Rate Mortgage for their support of the show.You can listen to previous shows by the way@stlintune.com Please help us continue to grow by leaving a review on our website, st.lintune.com, apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast platform. Our return to civility today is hold the door open and let a bunch of people go in front of you. Especially if you're afraid of what is waiting for you inside. I've never been scared about going into a place.I've held the door open for people not because it was raining but because it was polite thing to do and even if they got ahead of you in line, that's okay, everybody's gonna get through. Let's try to be civil folks. Let's bring back some civility to our world because things are still a little crazy.Our guest today, he's what I would call St. Louis in tunes, baseball historian, author. He's our in house kind of guy because he's been here a lot. He is the author of a new book From St.Louis to Baseball Legends Born and Made in the Gateway City and I want to give Ed a little introduction here because some of you may not be acquainted with him. Ed Wheatley is an award winning and best selling author and film Producer deeply involved in St.Louis sports, he serves on multiple Sports hall of Fame boards of directors across the St. Louis region.His many published books, matter of fact, he's the author of six books I believe have received national recognition, including Sports Digest selection as the best book published on baseball and a nomination for the Society for American Baseball Research Lawrence Ritter Award. His multiple films shown on the PBS network have all received regional Mid America Emmy Award nominations, including a Win.His films have appeared in the acclaimed National Baseball hall of Fame's annual film festival and have provided him multiple opportunities to speak at baseball's venerable institution in Cooperstown. Ed welcome back to St. Louis in Tune.

Ed00:03:15

It's great to be here today. It's always good to talk about baseball's best town in America.And the purpose of this book was if we really are the best town in America for baseball, we need to know the baseball history and we need to know who all these men, as you spoke about, the 55 men in the Cardinals franchise that are in the hall of fame, the 15 men that are in the Browns, members of the hall of Fame that played a year or two or career here in St. Louis. But and we have the Negro Leagues not to forget. And it's also one of the things that makes St.Louis such a good baseball town is our coverage, whether it's on the radio or in the newspaper. And I even get into who were those men that are in those areas of the hall of Fame.

Arnold00:03:58

Yeah. Because looking at the book here, the book's kind of divided. The book is divided into players of the St. Louis Cardinals, players of the St.Louis Browns, players of the Negro Leagues, players from St. Louis who played elsewhere, the Ford Frick Award winning broadcasters and the Baseball Writers association of America and winners, sports writers.

Ed00:04:25

Correct.

Arnold00:04:26

And I'm really glad that you included the latter two. And I want to talk about that a little bit because most people think about it's just about the players.But as you were mentioning radio and TV and the writers, what we read is just as important to have the fan base go.

Ed00:04:41

It's not only important to have the fan base going, but it's the way these men taught us the game. And we took that love of the game into our whole lives and it has become generation to generation handed down.You think about how Harry Carey in these days when baseball wasn't on television, no, Harry came along and really told the Cardinals they had lousy announcers in a carry way. But you know what he really did.And you think about this now, he said the guy Sitting on his patio or on his front porch, needs to see the game like he's sitting in the stands and think about his cadence of the pitcher looks in, toes the rubber, gets the sign, here's the wind up, the stretch, the pitch. You saw that in your mind. The ball game in those days where there was no television. And not only that, St.Louis being the farthest west, the most Southern. We had this people loving us from coast to coast. St.Louis is what listened everybody to the west and south, but even back East, Bob Costas talks about going and sitting in his dad's car back east in New York listening to Cardinal games.

Arnold00:05:50

Interesting.

Ed00:05:51

And so that is what really built the love of this France, these franchises. I can't just say the franchise, because we're really speaking of three franchises in this story.

Arnold00:06:01

And this isn't a book just for St. Louis fans. This is a book for baseball fans.And as you were getting into that, you go into some biographies with some basic personal and professional stats. And I really like the nickname kind of thing.

Ed00:06:16

Yeah.

Arnold00:06:16

But let's start with some of these well known players that we know, the ones that are on the wall, left field. And then let's move to some of the. Maybe not so well known.

Ed00:06:24

Yeah, yeah. We all know the more recent ones like Ozzy and Gibson and Brock.And I go in and speak in a lot of schools and you just got to kind of holy cow, paraphrasing Harry Carey again. But you'll talk. And kids don't know who Stan Musial is here in one of the greatest ballplayers, Stan Musil.And we don't know about him in the schools. These young kids, it's not being passed down from the parents like we received it. They're not seeing baseball the way we saw it in the newspapers.It's being minimized. So it's important that we not only learn about those who have touched our lives, but go back to the early days of baseball.George Sisler, one of the greatest men ever to play the game. Ty Cobb called him the perfect player. Three years in a row. His average was.400. And so who was Sisler?He was in that famous picture there in Cooperstown at the first induction in 1939 when they had him outside. But he played for the Browns. But because Baltimore has nothing to do with the Browns, there's nothing heralding him.And that's what we try to do in my books and also with the Browns fan club. But we should know all these people because there are the heroes. We had and these are the men who made us watch the game. They won pennants.Only the Yankees have more world championships than the Cardinals. So it's something that it is in St. Louis. I always, when I wrote the book Baseball in St.Louis, Little Leagues to Major Leagues, all I could think about was Susan Sarandon walking to the ballpark in the opening scenes from Bull Durham movie. The church bells are ringing.And you know, it's a Sunday, people walking to the church and she's walking past them and said, I've tried all the religions, I truly have, but it. But baseball meets my soul day in and day out. Baseball is the religion of St. Louis. Opening Day is our national holiday. So let's keep that up.But let's remember how we got there. And it's through these men and they played in all these franchises. But it's these men that you spoke of with those numbers, they're the heroes of St.Louis baseball.

Arnold00:08:40

They really are. You have. I'm just going to open the book to a random page. I know Dick Allen because he was playing when I was in school. Jim Bottomley, Sonny Jim.Now, most people wouldn't know him. I've heard of him, but that's about it.

Ed00:08:56

He was a premier first baseman. Those 20s teams going into the 30s, he was very top hitter. He lost out a couple MVPs because he had a guy named Rogers Hornsby to his right.But he was a key cog in those great pennants.He was one of the people that we got to remember that when Branch Rickey left the Browns and went over to the Cardinals and created the first minor league farm system for a major league team. Because, see, in those days, what we would call the equivalent, they were just independent teams. They had no allegiance to the major league team.People would go from them to the major leagues as free agents, okay. And he said, no, I'm going to sign them all to contracts when they're playing down there, and I will develop them. I have an eye of talent.That's how he. The Browns would not let him build that minor league system. The Cardinals, Sam Braden had just bought the team, said, make me a winner. He does.World pennants in 26, 28, 30, 31, 34, 42, 43, 44 and 46. And it's because these men, we have all those pennants that I just rattled off. And Bottomley was one of the key players for those teams.

Arnold00:10:11

And I didn't know Branch Rickey was a ballplayer himself.

Ed00:10:14

Oh, yes, he was. He was the worst catcher in major league history, he holds the records for most steals against a catcher at 12 in a game.The Washington Post headline, which I have a copy of the headline said to steal against Ricky, start running. But he was not a very good player. But he was a great. He had the could perceive talent and develop it and he knew how to instruct it.But he's also, I don't want to say egomaniac, but he, he really believed he, he was the top of the pyramid. That's why he did well with the Cardinals and then had to leave because he didn't get along with the owner after all those years.And he went up to Brooklyn. We know the Jackie Robinson story didn't last very long in Brooklyn goes to Pittsburgh and he's bounced around a bit.But wherever he went, whoever he touched, whether it was the Cardinals, whether it was the Brooklyn Dodgers and Jackie Robinson, he is the man who developed Roberto Clemente and brought him really those teams to Pittsburgh.

Arnold00:11:11

Wow. Didn't know that. This, as you're talking about this, I'm thinking do you know which position has pushed forward the most?Managers like catchers seem to because they're kind of like the general of the field and they really watch the game, they understand the game. I'm not saying none of the other players do. But are catchers more prevalent in being a manager or shortstops or does it really matter?As we've seen managers, my first answer.

Ed00:11:42

Was going to be bench jockeys.

Arnold00:11:45

That's true.

Ed00:11:46

And, and I say that even though catchers are a high product because they understand they're in every play of the game, they are kind of like the quarterback out on the field looking, watching. Yachty is a good example. They trust, they believe.But if you look at a lot of the really good managers, the great managers, bench jockeys are right because they sat there, you know, think of all the bench jockeys on the Yankees that sat there between innings of the whole game from a Billy Martin and all those players that watched Casey Stengel and then went off in their careers developing other teams. The good players like a Babe Ruth always wanted to manage. He couldn't control himself, much less how's he going to control a team.Same way with Ty Cobb. So these Rogers Hornsby to me is the poster child. A terrible manager. He was the greatest right hand hitter ever.He came he onto the Cardinals, developed up through Rickey's farm system.Takes the Cardinals to their first pennant in 1926, wins the world championship by tagging out Babe Ruth stealing second base with two outs in the bottom of the ninth. And he got fired immediately, right? Or traded? Immediately, right after. Because he and the owner got into it.I remember one time Hornsby tried to kick Sam Braden, the owner, out of get out of my locker room. And Mr. Braden had to remind Hornsby whose team, locker room and stadium it was. So they traded him to the Giants for Frankie Frisch.Frisch comes and would become a World Series winning manager with the Cardinals. But the Giants get rid of him after a year. He goes to the Boston Braves. They get rid of him after a year, he goes to the Chicago Cubs.And after a year and a half they get rid of him. They go to the World Series. But the players refuse to give him a share of the winnings because Hornsby could not equate with players.The good players have tough times because he doesn't understand why they can't all hit.400. He can't understand why they can't hit or execute this.So that is going to be something that's going to be interesting to see how men like Pujols and Molina, when they come in to manage, which is their aspirations right now. They have proven down in the Caribbean leagues that they can lead.And I think there is a little bit of difference in the player today than there was in those days. Like a Casey Stengel. He was a great manager, but he was not a very good player.

Arnold00:14:12

It's kind of like Tony La Russa.

Ed00:14:14

LaRussa and Whitey Herzog. Whitey Herzog. They were all bench jockeys. In the book we talk about Earl Weaver and all the pennants he won in Baltimore.

Arnold00:14:22

Baltimore.

Ed00:14:23

But Earl Weaver never made it to the major leagues. And even Dick Williams, who won multiple World Series titles and pennants, he was a marginal player, probably the very good.But you look at Yogi Berra, he had difficulty managing the Yankees. These were all the guys he played with and all that in 64 when the Yankees came and played the Cardinals in the World Series.There was no better person who came from St. Louis than Yogi Berra. He knew the game better than anyone, but yet it was difficult for him to manage.He did better when he got the rebound with the Mets in the early 70s and 73. But it was always a tough thing for him because he was just the likable kind of guy, a buddy. And you got to be strict, right? They're not producing.You got to push, really. I still. Catchers are probably the foremost and I think about all the catchers throughout there that are in the hall of Fame played for these St.Louis teams going back all the way to Peckinpah and all this. But it's still the bench jockey is the best answer.

Arnold00:15:26

That's a really good answer. This is Arnold Stricker with Mark Langston of St. Louis in Tune. We're talking to Ed Wheatley about his new book. And ed, it's from St.Louis to Cooperstown baseball legends born and made in the Gateway City. I've got. I'm just going to throw some names out here. I'm not trying to put you on the spot here. Kid Nichols, Charles Nichols.Folks, a lot of these folks you never heard of. Daz Dazzy Vance.

Ed00:15:50

Kid. Kid Nick Nichols. He won 30 games, seven times. What? Yeah, he was a great pitcher in those early years of baseball.Kind of had some personality issues that would get him in trouble. But I think I want to put this into perspective of the. This book. There's 346 individuals in Cooperstown, the Hall of Fame.

Arnold00:16:11

Okay.

Ed00:16:11

345 men and one woman. Do you know who the woman is?

Arnold00:16:15

She was instrumental in the Negro Leagues, correct?

Ed00:16:18

Yes. Yes.

Arnold00:16:19

I don't remember her name.

Ed00:16:21

She, she owned the part owner of the New Jersey. Of the Newark Eagles.

Arnold00:16:25

Okay.

Ed00:16:26

Effa Manning. Okay, Manning. And so she, they put her in. And there's 248, 245 men from the major leagues who played.There's 28 men from the Negro Leagues, 23 managers, 10 umpires and there are 40 recognized for their contributions to the game owners and things like that. Like F.M. manley was. But the thing that's the most interesting is of all the inductions that have taken place in the first class was in 1936.They had the first induction in 1939 there in, in Cooperstown. Since those, all those inductions, not every year there's not an induction. I think there's eight that years there wasn't. There was just one recently.But over 50% of those inductions have contained one of the men in the book. So over 50% of the inductions has someone with a roots to St. Louis and 21% of the men inducted have roots to St. Louis.That's one out of over one out of every five people in the hall of Fame has a tie to St. Louis. And you think about there's 30 cities playing ball and one out of every five is in St. Louis. Which goes back to why St.Louis has this huge tradition next to the Yankees of World Series is because we had such great players and that's what we need to know about them and document them.

Arnold00:17:59

Something before we even got on the air that I thought was fascinating about the number of players who have ever played baseball, professional baseball, in the major leagues. And would you expound on that for our listeners? Because they weren't privy to that conversation before we started recording.

Ed00:18:15

You know what I was talking about is everybody thinks they can make their child a $40 million baseball player per year. And you see all these young kids playing major league baseball has combined with the Negro leagues now.But if you just start at the major league baseball level, they just crossed the 20,000th player to play in the major leagues since the major leagues were formed as the National League in 1876. So there's just over 20,000 men who've crossed the white line. And 27% of them are less than 25 games played. That tells you how hard it is.That does not fill the bottom bowl of Busch Stadium.

Arnold00:18:55

And we're just talking major league, not minor leagues.

Ed00:18:57

We're just talking major league, not minor leagues. No, I mean there's thousands. The minor league, to put it in perspective compared to today.Now we got colleges today, but like in the 50s, the Brooklyn Dodgers had 26 minor league clubs. The Yankees had 24. Even the lowly Browns had 18. Wow, that is. So many men would go and play a year or two. Could they make it or not?But unfortunately, when I wrote some of these books, I talked to a lot of these men who didn't make it from little leagues to major leagues. They'd give me their scrapbooks and whatever. The Yankees would come in and flood St. Louis big time. And they would all sign with the Yankees.How many years? Five. How many times did they won five years in a row over a 25 year period, you're going to go beat out Mickey Mano and Phil Rizzuto and Whitey Ford.So it was really hard. They always regret they should have signed with a different team because they might have had a better chance.It is in perspective the chances of making 6 million kids a year play baseball. And since 1876, and we're coming up on that 150th anniversary of 1876 and just over 20,000 men have played in the major leagues.

Arnold00:20:10

That was really surprising to me when you mentioned that. I would have thought way more, way more than that. No, and the fact that, what is it, 27% only played less than 25 games.

Ed00:20:21

Think about all the September call ups that you never hear again. All these guys who come up, play a few innings in September, you never hear from them again and they're gone.And there's a good case in point of one of the gentlemen in this book. He's in the hall of Fame, but he only played one game in the major leagues.And in that one game he came in, he played two innings, first ball hit to him, error. He gets one bat in the two innings. Tate strikes out on three pitches. Yet I go back to the bench jockey.He became a great manager and is inducted into the hall of Fame as a longtime manager of the Dodgers. Walter Olson. Oh, but his one game in the major leagues, one and only happened here as a St. Louis Cardinal.

Arnold00:21:15

He was manager when Don Drysdale and Sandy Koufax.

Ed00:21:19

He was manager back in Brooklyn too, right?

Arnold00:21:21

Yeah.

Ed00:21:21

He went west with the Brooklyn Dodgers to Los Angeles and he was over like all those great teams of the Dodgers in those early 60s.

Arnold00:21:29

It's those little stories like that that you have that make your books stand out on the bookshelf of baseball.

Ed00:21:37

And as going back to Harry Carey once more, when I do research, all of a sudden my wife hears me. Holy cow.Like we all remember in 1974, April 1974, when we watched Hank Aaron take that trophy away of career all time home run record from Babe Ruth. But did you know who held it for over a quarter century before Babe Ruth was the career in the book. It's in the book because he has roots to St.Louis, 25 years he was the all time home run king in Major league Baseball. And it's these nuggets. People say who's. I said buy the book. But it is, we've got, we just. Jackie Robinson. I mentioned him with a branch ricket.The Latin Jackie Robinson. Who was the Latin Jackie Robinson.He came out of the Caribbean Leagues, went to the Negro leagues, came up here, played five decades in Major league Baseball. He actually played for five decades. I'll give him. I'll throw him out just in the honor of that. He's the Latin Jackie Robinson, Minnie Minoso.And Minoso was a great player with the Cleveland Indians, the White Sox was. He has multiple Golden Gloves at different positions. He was part of that inaugural golden glove class of 1957. But he came to St. Louis in 62.He was going to be this veteran presence following Stan Mujo, but he crashed his head, broke a skull and then wrist when he fell at Sportsman's Park. And so his time was short here in St.Louis because he was basically out the season and they weren't sure a broken wrist is usually a couple years to get your strength back and all he was at more at the tail end but he went back to coaching in with the White Sox and in the and in the 70s he Bill Veeck activated him in September and in the 80s he got activated in September as well. In the 70s games he played multiple he did get some hits, but in the 80s he never did. But he did play over five decades.

Arnold00:23:42

That's crazy. That's totally crazy.

Ed00:23:45

But it's hey, that's baseball trivia.

Arnold00:23:47

That is baseball trivia and those are the kinds of things we're gonna take a little break and we're going to get more of from Ed Wheatley, who's our guest. This is Arnold Stricker with Mark Langston of St. Louis in Tune. Don't go away.

Sponsor00:24:14

As strange as it may sound, at Better Rate Mortgage we love talking to people about mortgages. Everyone in St. Louis promises a better mortgage rate. But what you really need to turn that perfect house into your dream home is a better mortgage.At Better Rate Mortgage, we open the door to so much more. So where are you in the home buying process? Researching, maybe wondering how much you can afford House hunting?Get a pre approval from Better Rate Mortgage Ready to Buy. Our team is ready to make your mortgage process fast and easy.Whether you're purchasing your first home or taking cash out to make your dream home even dreamier. Our door is open. Come on in and get started today. We'll show you how.Call Sean directly at 314-375-3293 or online@betterratemortgage.com Remember, at Better Rate Mortgage, a better rate is just the beginning. Betterratemortgage.com and MLS ID 401335 and equal housing lender this is Arnold Stricker of St.Louis in tune on behalf of the Dred Scott Heritage Foundation. In 1857, the Dred Scott decision was a major legal event and catalyst that contributed to the Civil War.The decision declared that Dred Scott could not be free because he was not a citizen.The 14th Amendment, also called the Dred Scott Amendment, granted citizenship to all born or naturalized here in our country and was intended to overturn the US Supreme Court decision on July 9, 1868.The Dred Scott Heritage foundation is requesting a commemorative stamp to be issued from the US Postal Service to recognize and remember the heritage of this amendment by issuing a stamp with the likeness of the man Dred Scott. But we need your support and the support of thousands of people who would like to see this happen.To achieve this goal, we ask you to download, sign and share the one page petition with others. To find the petition, please go to dred ScottLives.org and click on the Dred Scott petition drive on the right side of the page.On behalf of the Dred Scott Heritage foundation, this has been Arnold Stricker of St. Louis in Tune.

Arnold00:26:16

Welcome back to St. Louis in Tune. This is Arnold Stricker with Mark Langston. Mark is on assignment. We are talking to Ed Wheatley about his new book From St.Louis to Cooperstown Baseball Legends Born and Made in The Gateway City. Ed's other books I wanted to mention baseball in St. Louis, from little leagues to major leagues. St. Louis Brown's the story of a beloved team.Incredible Cardinals. St. Louis Cardinals. Everything you need to know. St. Louis sports memories, Forgotten Teams and moments from America's best sports town.Ed, how long did it take you to put all the research together for this?Because I can imagine getting the basic stat stuff that's available, the little antidotes, you know, that you go, the little stories that you have here, which to me really makes this come alive.

Ed00:27:03

Yeah, it's interesting that you do say that when stats are easy and they're there, you got to do a lot of validating, triangulation to validate what is the right stats, whether Baseball reference or the hall of Fame, because there are instances where you think you have it right. Heck, Jesse Burkett is a good example. Who's Jesse Burkett?He played for the Cardinals and the Browns at the turn of the century in 1905, won a couple batting titles, moved over as a free agent right after the American Leagues was created in 1901 and joined the Browns because he could get more money. But Jesse Burkett, his plaque says he hit.400 three times. His hall of Fame plaque when he was inducted, I think it was in 1946. But it got later.They baseball, they're always updating things and they updated and he went down to.396. He's got this plaque up in Cooperstown says he hit.403 times, but he only hit.402 times.When you look at it today, because they restated two games that he played in.

Arnold00:28:12

Do they go back and change the plaque? Do they leave the play?

Ed00:28:14

They can't change the plaque. No. Really, I noted that it's there. Those are interesting.There was, depending on where you look, there was this infamous batting title between Ty Cobb and Napoleon Lajoie, the Indians and the Cleveland. And people had this disregard For Cobb, because he always kept winning in his surly personality.But from what I've really researched and studied and talked to people, Ty Cobb was not that mean of a guy or bad. There was a book that came out and then the Tommy Lee Jones movie really shaded his character. And they had this.Everybody wanted to have Cobb not win again. And there was a time here in St. Louis playing the Browns. They put the infield on the grass and Lazuay bunted a bunch of times.And they were saying he beat Cobb. And then they restated some games and it changed. It's always happening. Somehow they find something and they change it.You would think in a society and a world we live on, it would be fact. Now, in the Negro Leagues, it's a lot harder because the records weren't as exact or even sometimes didn't even exist. It's hard, but it does.But it takes you. It takes you a year and a half, two years to really get it and get it like you want it.And you look for those special stories because in all these books you look, how's mine going to be different? My mind's going to be better?

Arnold00:29:35

How's it going to stand out from other books, right?

Ed00:29:37

So that it's just not the same old thing. Why would I want to read that? Because I've read all these others. The thing about this is different.There's all these people you've never heard of, but they had time here in St. Louis and they are in the hall of Fame. They helped make St. Louis baseball great.And Kid Nichols, somebody rate his name and they say, was that a western cowboy show or something? In these names we had Dizzy and Dazzy. We had the Dazzy, Desi Vance, we had the Rabbit. Who was the rabbit?There's these little stories and you think about names of baseball. Two prominent names for people of most generations. If you said Charles Kamitzky, what's the first thing you think of?

Arnold00:30:20

Comiskey Field.

Ed00:30:21

Comiskey Field in Chicago. And he owned the. He would eventually own the White Sox. Own the White Sox. He played before and was a decent player. And he spent time here in St.Louis the same way. If I say Griffith, Clark Griffith, what do you think? Griffith stadium in Washington, D.C. he was a very good pitcher before.He bought and owned for decades the Washington Senators. But he actually had a. I guess I say he had a better playing career than he did an owner career.Because the Sox, the Senators, excuse me, weren't that good. But all these things, they have time. We talked about the Home run king before Babe Ruth. And still today, he wasn't really a home run hitter.I think he had 75 in his whole major league career. But he holds the record for inside the park home runs.

Arnold00:31:08

Wow.

Ed00:31:09

And it was Jesse Burkett who I spoke of a minute ago. He had 55. That's a record for inside the park home runs over a career.

Arnold00:31:15

That's crazy. Did you go to Cooperstown in Kansas City to those respective hall of Fames to get stories and get information?

Ed00:31:24

And like I said, I've had the luxury of speaking multiple times in Cooperstown. You talk about humbling. Oh, my God, why am I there? How can this be?But, yeah, you get in their archives and look, and down at Cardinals hall of Fame, Amy Barrett and them are just great. And it's people willing to work with you. I call and living players and talk to them and get their memories. And that's just in itself an honor.

Arnold00:31:47

Yeah, that was my next question. I know you've rubbed shoulders with a lot of current players and past players.How about family members, maybe children, grandchildren who have those stories? You were able to connect with them.

Ed00:31:58

Yes. I go because I want to get. Make sure the slant's right. I want to say it right. He's not tied to the book as being one of the St.Louis personalities in there, but I've been spending a lot of time with Babe Ruth's grandson working on a little project here. And actually he will be coming to our St. Louis Browns annual luncheon on August 25th at the Missouri Athletic Club.

Arnold00:32:20

Do a little commercial about that Browns luncheon.

Ed00:32:22

Yeah, you're saving.

Arnold00:32:23

You're saving the memory of the St. Louis Browns for history here.

Ed00:32:26

The St. Louis Browns legacy. And that's important for two reasons. One, the Baltimore Orioles have nothing to do with it.You can't find the 1944 pennant up there in Camden Yards. Flying George sisler. And the 15 men in the hall of Fame that played for the Browns aren't honored.They recognized in 1954 when they started up there in Baltimore, they said the Browns, they died. They were buried in St. Louis. Their legacy did not come east. They chose not to have that legacy be a part of their franchise.See, Baltimore got kicked in the teeth as well in 1903. They were in the original class of the American League in 1901, but 1903, just like the Browns were not in the Original Class of 1901.They were the Milwaukee brewers and they were moved to St. Louis, the largest city in the country, in 1902.In 1903, Ban Johnson, the president of the American League, moved the Baltimore Orioles to New York, the largest city in America. They became the Highlanders that season and then they changed their name to the Yankees a few years later. But they had a great minor leagues.They were like the Yankees of the minor leagues. And that's the tradition they choose. But what's so good about. We still have over 700 people actively participating in our Browns fan club.Every year we have this annual luncheon. We go over to the Grizzlies and have Brown's Night at the Grizzlies had a bobblehead and a bobblehead. And this year we're doing Pete Gray.This is the 80th anniversary of Pete Gray playing in 1945. For those viewers or listeners, excuse me, don't recall Pete Gray. He was the one armed left fielder. He got.He deserved a shot because he had been the MVP in the Southern Atlantic League, the Sally League, the year before. But the difference between minor league baseball, especially wartime minor league baseball, and major leagues is different.That's why we have tens of thousands of people every year playing minor league baseball that we'll never hear about in the majors. It's that hard. But Pete Gray did get a shot. But the thing that's so important, and this kind of comes back to this book, here we are in St. Louis.Costas calls it the best baseball town in America. And I'm here to. Yeah, you go to Atlanta and the Braves. Honor the Braves in Boston and Milwaukee, their legacy.You go to Oakland and I guess now Sacramento. I haven't been to that stadium yet. In Oakland, they flew the pennants of Connie Mack's Athletics.In Philadelphia, the Dodgers honor the Brooklyn years and the Brooklyn 55 World Series and the Giants the same way, their New York heritage. You go to Minnesota and people forget the Minnesota Twins were the Washington Senators and they moved to Minnesota.And the major league backfilled a different team and they honor their years, Walter Johnson and all their pennants there in Washington. But there's nothing about Baltimore. There is no support. So to keep this legacy going is what we are all about.And the thing that is so interesting, there is nothing like our club. Participatory. We get over 300 people to our luncheons every year. We get thousands over at the Browns Night at the Grizzlies.There is no participatory action of a club or anything for the New York Giants, Brooklyn Dodgers, Boston Braves, or. Who was the other one?

Arnold00:35:54

The Senators.

Ed00:35:55

The Senators. Yeah. We are there. We're special and it's because St. Louis is such a great baseball town.

Arnold00:36:02

Is the Baltimore management ownership the same as it was? Has that passed down to in a family or is that just a different ownership? New ownership say hey, yeah, the Browns.

Ed00:36:14

We've actually made several trips up to Baltimore for events and things and they just said it's yours now. They did. Baltimore was sold last year, but they the new one we've reached out as is not interested.There's even talk of him selling it again a year later, but no Baltimore. We've made inroads in a way. I'm fine with it. We've got it. We're doing pretty good job.It's led to people know us across the country from the Emmy winning Browns films we've had out on pbs and our Browns book was picked as the best book published in baseball in 2017. It's great to see at Cardinal games or just walking through some stores in St. Louis, people wearing a Browns hat or a Browns T shirt.Or you go over to the Gateway Grizzlies game, which is August 14th, and you will see thousands of people all dressed in Brown's attire.

Arnold00:37:11

And it's just not St. Louis people. There's people from all over the country that come.

Ed00:37:14

Oh, we get people from all over the country to come. We come people from, let's say we've had people who regularly come from up in New York to our luncheons from Seattle, Washington, California.So we try to coordinate so that there's a Cardinal game in in that same period that we're having the luncheon. So people come for vacation time. And it's just so special that we can keep this legacy alive.

Arnold00:37:38

That is special. You're going to be doing the book launch.

Ed00:37:41

Yes.

Arnold00:37:42

You got some events and appearances. I want to read these Friday, May 2nd at Clark Family Library on South Lindbergh. Then you've got May 3rd at Main Street Books in St.Charles, Tuesday, May 13th at the Missouri History Museum and Sunday, May 18th at the Crondelette Historical Society. I know there's going to be many more.

Ed00:38:00

There's dozens after that. But anything, we always kick off my books usually at the St. Louis County Library, which is the number one author speaking series in the country.

Arnold00:38:10

Really?

Ed00:38:11

Yes. And they've got that brand new building there at Lindbergh and Highway 40. Great auditorium.So invite everybody, come out and listen to a lot deeper discussion on St. Louis baseball greatness.

Arnold00:38:23

And the book is really hot off the press folks. Like last Friday from Reedy Press So you can get this at Ready press. Go to readypress.com it's available there.Main last question I've got for you, Ed, is and I always ask this question and some people may say, why do you ask that question all the time?But to me, I'm always inquisitive because I want to know what you have discovered that has been like, man, I didn't know that about this player or I didn't know this about baseball or this city or this stadium in this book. The biggest surprise that as you were doing your research and you said holy cow.And your wife was like, what'd you find now, Ed, what was that big surprise for you? That big wow?

Ed00:39:07

I think the big, the biggest holy cow. And there were, there's a lot in the in there was really Roger Connor, a player I really never heard about.And he was the man who for 25, over 25 years, I think it was 28, held the career home run record that Babe Ruth finally adopted. And he's also, he was so big and tall, he became the image that eventually led to the New York Giants be called being called the Giants.So there's another backstory to that. But Roger Connor, I remember watching the Hank Aaron Countdown to 7:15 and it had never been brought up. Never ever.No, he is not one that I, I can't tell you how many times I've been through the Cardinals hall of Fame. It just never jumped out at me. There's all the little quirky stories like a you always heard about Ernie Banks never played in the World Series.A gentleman by the name of Bobby Thomas Wallace. Bobby Wallace played for the Cardinals and then the Browns.There's 66 men who played for the Browns and Cardinals and six of them, there's all 15 of the hall of Famers of the Browns are in the book. We only have nine under the section of Browns because the others are covered as their time in the Cardinals.And that's also kind of like they always had their better years with the Cardinals than they were on their down years when they got to the Browns because they didn't want to leave St. Louis. But what would have happened if it was the other way around? But so it is.There's, there are the, it's hard to just say one, but that is probably like, why did I not know that?

Arnold00:40:51

Maybe because he was born in 1857. I'm reading right now. He died in 1931, but he played with the Browns in 1897.He was National League champion twice national league batting leader, RBI leader and 6, 3, 220. And back then that was huge. That was big.

Ed00:41:12

And one thing to say there, right there, when he said he played for the Browns there in the 1890s, that's one of the biggest kind of. The term Browns is like a cat with nine lives in St. Louis baseball. Because there was 1876. See, St. Louis has had four major league teams. 1876 and 77.They were the St. Louis Browns Stockings. They got kicked out of the league for gambling and game fixing issues which was prevalent in those days.But they got kicked out. The American association was created by a gentleman, Chris Vonderij.Many of your readers will remember that he was a big beer baron of those days and heard about it. He was an immigrant from Germany. Heard about baseball. It's good. So I can sell a lot of beer.And his tavern was just up the street from Sportsman's Park. Would go to the ball game.And then the American association was very popular because they served beer and played on Sundays where the National League was puritanical. And they played as the Brown Stockings, taking homage to the name of that other team from several years earlier.And then they were so good they won multiple championships of the American association and actually are the only American association team to beat a National League team because they had a tournament of champions prior to the World series. And this St. Louis team beat a team from Chicago that had won, which will be the Cubs. And establishes that rivalry between the cardinals and St. Louis.And then when the Cardinals when his Brown Stockings actually moved into the National League. Because if you couldn't beat them, you might as well let them join. In 1892 they came in as the Browns.So he actually played on a team called the Browns. But in 1898 they changed their name to the Perfectos. And then they would dome the lovely shade of Cardinal red. And there ever be the Cardinals.You got to be very careful when you throw out which franchise you're talking about. Because then in 1901 the Milwaukee brewers, as we said a moment ago, moved it to St.Louis and took the term Brown in homage to all those others we know as people think Cy Young came here. He came here and he played in 1898 and 99 he played for the Perfectos. And then they changed their name to the Cardinals and things.And he won 46 of his 511 games here in St. Louis. People don't know that Cy Young was a key part of St. Louis baseball history.

Arnold00:43:43

See folks, this is why you need to get this book and Ed's other books because. And this is why he's our resident baseball history expert. He's got a wealth of knowledge. This book's a great book. It's called From St.Louis to Cooperstown Baseball Legends Born and Made in the Gateway City. It's available From Reedy Press, reedypress.com Ed, great to see you again.

Ed00:44:04

Thanks for coming in. I'm happy to be here because you get me going, man. And there's nothing better than talking baseball.

Arnold00:44:08

That's right. That's right. And you know it. It's great talking to Ed Wheatley. We enjoy having him in the studio each and every time.Even when he doesn't have a book out. It's great to just pick his brain about what's going on with baseball, not only here in St. Louis, but across the United States.Our word for the day is liaison.It refers to a person who helps organizations or groups work together and provide information to each other or to a relationship that allows such interactions.I would say that Ed Wheatley is a liaison to baseball and the public because he informs us about what's happening about players, about the development of players, and about the history of baseball. So just to close out the show with a few funnies for you folks, finally my winter fat is gone. Now I have spring rolls. Hmm.Just help my neighbor bury a rolled up carpet in the woods. Her boyfriend would have done it, but he's out of town. So.A man loses three fingers in a work accident and at the hospital he asks the doctor, will I be able to drive with this hand? The doctor replies, maybe, but I wouldn't count on it.And finally, the main function of the little toe on your foot is to make sure that all the furniture in the house is in place. That's all for this hour. Thanks for listening.If you've enjoyed this episode, you can listen to additional shows@stlandune.com consider leaving a review on our website, Apple Podcasts, Podchaser, or your preferred podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and continue to grow.I want to thank Bob Berthisel for our theme music, our guest, Ed Wheatley, co host, Mark Langston, who's on assignment, and we thank you for being a part of our community of curious minds. Thank Louis. In Tune is a production of Motif Media Group and the US Radio Network.Remember to keep seeking, keep learning, walk worthy, and let your light shine. For St. Louis in tune, I'm Arnold Stricker.